This is a difficult post to write, not just because I will inevitably be criticising some of my fellow Reds fans, but because we started this website to talk about matters on the pitch – my ethnicity has nothing to do with what I’m about to write, the fact that I am a proud Forest supporter has everything to do with it.
The news that the police are investigating the alleged racist chanting at the Forest v Leicester match last week has certainly provoked a reaction. Unfortunately, the reaction from many was that it is “banter” and it is “the PC brigade gone mad”.
Last year, before the 3-2 game against Leicester in which Paul McKenna scored that soft late winner, I was walking along Trentside with my brother and my Dad. You don’t have to do much searching to discover that, ethnically, I am “British Asian”. So, a brown-skinned Forest fan, walking to the ground proudly wearing my snazzy new white away shirt (well, it was new to me). All the way along Trentside, there were a bunch of Reds fans making cracks about how the blue-shirted away fans walking the other way could not be Leicester fans as they were not “Pakis”. They tried to start some chants about the ethnic make-up of the city down the A46. They even did Nazi salutes, for God’s sake. I reported them to the stewards as soon as I could find one, but I suspect they got away.
“So what?” I hear you cry. “That has nothing to do with a chant of ‘You used to be English, you’re not anymore’”. I have two responses to this: firstly, would you sing that if Leicester were owned by (for example) Australians? Secondly, who do you think starts these chants? I would put money on it being the same kind of people who abuse “Paki Leicester fans” even with me standing five yards away, the same people who chant, “You’re just a small town in Baghdad/Asia”, and the same people who used to take glee in chanting, “Leicester’s full of Pakis” (thankfully that one seems to have gone out of fashion).
Of course, I cannot prove my hypothesis, but have a think about it before you join in next time.
I challenged someone on Twitter who was defending the chants as “banter” and who said that “what happens on the pitch should stay on the pitch”; I tweeted to say that, at a guess, he had never been on the receiving end of any racist abuse. He responded to say that, no he hadn’t, but he is not a racist and he has black and Asian friends and family. I made my point to him via a private message, we ironed it out, and there are no hard feelings.
The problem is twofold: if you have never been on the receiving end of racist abuse, then you really don’t know what it feels like (this is not just about being black or Asian – my neighbour moved to London from Ireland in the eighties); also, if you really believe that “what happens on the pitch stays on the pitch”, then you are effectively condoning John Terry’s alleged abuse of Anton Ferdinand, and Luis Suarez’s proven use of an abusive term against Patrice Evra (and no, Luis and Kenny, ignorance is not an excuse).
There is also the argument that “I have black/Asian/gay/female friends and we make racist/homophobic/sexist jokes to each other all the time”. This is not the same – that can acceptable providing that this is consensual; when all parties willingly participate, then it can be regarded as “banter”. Thousands of fans chanting “Small town in Baghdad” to the away fans is not consensual – it is potentially inflammatory.
Oh yeah, and a number of Reds fans on Twitter were pointing to the alleged behaviour of Leicester fans towards home fans who were held by police under Lady Bay Bridge. No, this is not acceptable, but as far as I can tell, two wrongs do not, will not, and have never made a right. One wise (white) fan on Twitter made the sage and valid point: “My club, my morals [that many Liverpool fans seemed to show with the Suarez case] is now afflicting some Forest fans”.
I am just going to leave you with this thought – next time you engage in some “banter”, whether it be in the workplace, in the pub or even with thousands of others at the football, just take a minute to read the body language of any black/Asian/female/gay/other minority people around you. I mean, REALLY look closely. If you notice people go a little pale (no racist pun intended), their lips tighten up or their shoulders hunch just a little bit, then have a think about what you are doing. Because YOU are doing it.
Comments
Great article – exactly what I have been trying to tell people on a certain forum, but with little success. Well said mate.
It wasnt racist so shut up
Nice try, troll…
Nice article buddy. One thing I don’t quite agree with is that ignorance is not an excuse (whilst I agree that it is unsavoury I know a few older people who use certain terms to describe ethnic groups who in my opinion mean no malice but I would describe it as ignorant) but on the other hand the Suarez case was not ignorance it was just plain racist.
Good article I appreciate it must of been one of your harder ones to write. Racism is totally unacceptable, I hate the argument that I am not racist because some of my closest friends are X. If you respect your friends origins “paki” why are you saying it in a derogatory way to people you don’t know, and will likely not see that it is “banter”.
Great article.
Unfortunately, I’m glad the police are looking into it, I hope those who indulged in the chanting are punished, named and shamed, just like the bloke abusing Stan Collymore on twitter. However, I am almost certain it will go 1 of 2 other ways. Either the case is dropped for insufficient evidence or something or we’ll receive a punishment which will affect those of us who aren’t racists (a game behind closed doors or even worse, a points deduction.)
It’s just a shame that these ignorant morons don’t understand what they’re doing. The fine line between ‘banter’ and ‘racism’ is now becoming too blurred, and that’s probably due to the fact (as your rightly pointed out) that they have never been subjected to this kind of hate crime themselves.
Well written; very succinctly put. I do however object to the so called fans of other clubs trying to make the situation worse than it actually is i.e. painting the whole of our supporters the same. As Oli has already said I can see us all getting punished for the crime of a few, but let’s face it, it won’t be the first time; UEFA punished many English clubs including us for the Heysel Stadium disaster.
Nice artile mate on a tough topic. I belive the chants were subtly but intentionally racist. I think that “its in reference to their owners/stadium etc” is just an alibi to cover the fact fans probably are aiming the chants at the fact Leicester is culturally diverse. Football banter should be football banter (Cups, previous matches, players/managers etc), not attacking the race of people who live in a city.
Do you see fans chanting “you used to be English” at other foreign owned clubs? West Ham, Derby and Birmingham all have foreign ownership. I personally don’t remember hearing those chants in “reference to their owners.”
Great point, well made.
I work on the sports desk of the Liverpool Echo so this issue has, for obvious reasons, been at the forefront of my mind for some time now. The ‘my club, my morals’ attitude of some (by no means all) Liverpool fans in the aftermath of the Suarez incident sickened me – it sickened me equally to go on LTLF after this story broke and find it full of the same cocktail of excuses and special pleading. It doesn’t (or it shouldn’t) matter that these dickheads are Forest fans, any more than it should matter to Liverpool fans that Suarez is their star player – sometimes, humanity has to come before club loyalty.
You raise an interesting point at the end there when you list women among groups who might be offended by ‘banter’. Does this mean I’m not the only (male) Forest fan to nearly turn himself inside-out cringing whenever that awful chant about ‘tits, fanny and Forest’ strikes up? Or to feel thoroughly ashamed when (as happened at Barnsley last season) scores of Forest fans start chanting ‘slags’ at a troupe of teenage cheerleaders, seconds after asking them to get their tits out for ‘the lads’?
I reported a bloke two seats up from me for racist chanting. I have spoken to the lad for the last 4 years and never realised he was capable of such vitriol. The chants were aimed at Dele Adebola. JT no longer goes to matches has his ST has been ripped up by the club. So they do respond to complaints swiftly and fairly
Wasn’t at the game, and I think “small town in Baghdad is indefensible”. However, when I first heard “you used to be British you’re not anymore” I think it was at Cardiff not Leicester which was a taunt about loss of community ownership and the “Chelsea factor” of a club with a foreign owner trying to buy success with vast resources. It is no different to me. I would hope we can find a way to be vocal about clubs short cutting to success (lcfc have spent a years income just on transfer fees) whilst avoiding terms that people could misinterpret as being about the ethnic make-up of the place.
You don’t have to be the subject of racism, overt or covert to understand how it feels. Going for a pre-match pint,walking to the ground and sitting with my British-born asian friend at Forest can be a horrible experience for us all. The hate, ignorance and injustice makes it almost unbearable at times and I wonder why we bother.
Additionally, as a woman with a 15 year old daughter we also know how the sexist ‘banter’ makes us feel. My heart sinks when I see a female offical running the line as I know she only have to make one error and the full reportoire of A block’s sexist rants will be unleashed.
I am pleased this matter is being persued. I hope things will change but in my heart of hearts I know it won’t.The recent ignorant opinions on rascist incidents of Blatter the comments from Chelsea and Liverpool over events there have all contributed to a general feeling that this is what being a footballer/supporter is all about – put up or shut up.
I know that our post match analysis on the way home will, amongst other things, still include ‘why do the fans behave like they do to black people and women? Why indeed!
Husky: So why weren’t there similar chants when Leicester were owned by the Serbian-American Milan Mandaric? Will people be chanting this at Southampton this Saturday?
I merely want to urge you to think about where the chant comes from – what kind of people do you think start these songs, and do you really want to be associated with them?
The above is obviously not directed at you personally (you have always come across as a well-balanced individual
, but food for thought for all footy fans, and indeed all members of society.
I meant “Southampton fans”, obviously
The racism is awful.
Many other football chants are horrible too.
I hate the one where Yorkshire fans shout “Scab” all through the match.
A great report, a shame about the topic in this day and age though.
I was working in the Brian Clough stand with the leics fans, I heard the chants from the A block and was disgusted. As you said in the report, I also witnessed Brian Clough death chants and the offenders were warned by stewards and police and it stopped. Apart from these two chants I thought the behaviour from both sets of fans was pretty good.
Twitter:paul_nffc1865
Excellent article – and very timely! Good responses to it too.
Racism IS disgusting and NFFC and its fans should have zero tolerance of it. This means reporting perpetrators – and/or challenging them if that feels safe? – and ensuring the club takes strong and decisive action against those responsible(encouraging to read 99′s post on club response to complaint).
I too hate the scab taunts Forest fans are subjected to at some away grounds: do they not know that Cloughie actively supported the Nottm Striking Miners! As, of course, did many Forest fans.
Far from it being PC-gone-mad to be offended by racist and sexist behaviour, it comes from a belief that our club should have an inclusive, diverse fan base where all feel welcome. And we are not prepared to allow a minority of neanderthals to tarnish the image of our club, and to cause offence to the majority of supporters, in particular those who may be on the receiving end of their ignorant rants.
Well said. Banter stops being banter when it starts offending. Yes. Red card to racism.
A good article here, agree with all of it. For me the justification of fans is completely baffling. There seem to be three main justifications for it, and all of them are pathetic.
1) It’s not as bad as it used to be / it’s always happened – So? Not being *as* racist as 10 years ago or however long isn’t a reason. What do they want, a medal? “Yes I’m racist but I used to be more racist, let me off.” And just because “small town near Baghdad” has been apparently sung for years and is sung by other clubs fans to Leicester, again doesn’t give anyone any kind of right or justification to chant it.
2) Leicester fans were throwing fag ends, coins and stones at Forest fans, that’s worse – I wasn’t aware that two wrongs made a right. If that’s true the police will (hopefully) deal with that too. Let them be the criminals, not you!
3) It’s aimed at foreign owners – I therefore assume that on Saturday when Southampton come to the City Ground with their Italian banker Chairman and funded by the estate of their late Swiss owner the chants of “you used to be English…” will ring out again. Just like when we played Derby, Birmingham, Hull and Cardiff earlier in the season and when the US owned Millwall and Russian owned Portsmouth visit later in the season.
I’d also like to add that whilst the police are looking into it now, I know it was reported to them at the game and their attitude was “we won’t be able to prove anything and no fan will admit anything, if you [stewards] hear anything, give them a warning”. Pathetic.
Many thanks for this excellent article.
It has been reassuring and even uplifting to read some of the comments above too. I sit in B block and so had a very good view of the racist chanting which was indulged in by a minority yes, but it was a large minority, certainly hundreds of people. Given these number it would have been very difficult for stewards to do much about it at the time so I think that the club itself should act, and that needn’t be difficult. A letter should be sent to all season ticket holders in A Block stating that in future games involving Leicester CCTV coverage will be analysed post-match and anyone identified indulging in racist chanting will immediately have their season ticket revoked and will be subsequently banned for life.
I will write to the club myself making this recommendation, I urge all other fans to do so too. This is our club and I will not stand idly by and let these thugs spoil the pleasure and enjoyment of the majority.
As a Leicester fan who commented on twitter about the ‘used to be English’ chant after the league game earlier in the season, I’m disappointed to hear the chant re-surfaced on Saturday, but genuinely impressed by this article and the responses to it on this site. There clearly is hope, and to paraphrase George Orwell, it lies with ordinary fans standing up for what they believe in – especially by challenging fellow supporters of their own club when they hear chanting which is racist, sexist or homophobic.
We won’t get anywhere if it is only the ‘other’ team’s fans who object or complain, the issue gets lost in the tribal nature of football support. But discussions like this one help to make it something that the silent majority feel able to challenge. It’s not a sign of being a bad fan if you want your fellow fans to sing or chant without causing offense on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, etc. I’m all for banter between fans, but banter is witty, targetted and sharp. Racism and the like is, by definition, none of those things, and has no place in football. Or anywhere else.
What a well written, considered article. Well done sir!
I’m a Leicester fan and I sat in the Trent End Upper (great view BTW) for the game. I didn’t know anything about this chanting until it broke on Twitter and then local news. The chants from the Trent End were, in my opinion, all football related with no racial overtones whatsoever.
Whilst I agree that the chants on the video are entirely wrong (no one shouted this at us when we were owned by a Serb with American citizenship so the ownership thing doesn’t wash), I feel that Nottingham Forest as a whole are being castigated for the actions of a minority. It’s not fair to try and bring the club and it’s supporters into dissrepute for the actions of a few, to be frank, idiots.
I’ve never been able to understand how fans can chant songs with racial overtones when EVERY team is made up of players from different ethnic backgrounds?!
Singing and chanting at football matches is part of the games heritage and I hope it continues. Who wants to watch a football match as if it were cricket?! However, there is a line that we’re all old enough to know we should not cross and the perpetrators should be dealt with individually. Any club can only do so much, it’s up to us as supporters of our respective clubs to help the stewards and police by reporting offensive behaviour.
Tom. You’re certainly not the ‘only (male) Forest fan’ to have those feelings; I hate it and feel for those around me who may be more directly offended whether in a pub before, or in the crowd at a game.
Andy C. Although the perpetrators of Saturday’s chants were undoubtedly in A block a statement could be made to the whole ground stating that any sort of offensive chants will constitute a ban and that CCTV will be used to ascertain the culprits from any game where they occur. Signs could be installed around the ground to this effect too, which could also have on them a telephone number for reporting any type misbehaviour in the ground. This if possible should go directly to someone with match day responsibility for overseeing crowd behaviour.
Fantastic article, and its extremely refreshing to see Forest fans standing up against their fellow Reds that have behaved in this way.
I’m a Leicester fan and was at the CG on Saturday. I heard the ‘English’ song, but it wasn’t the worse one I heard, especially outside of the ground.
We’re not whiter than white though (no pun intended, lol!), the incident on the Trent Bridge was unacceptable, the small difference is though that it was 10 maybe 20 people, and no Leicester fan since has come out in support of their actions. I’d happily see the people that were spitting etc off the bridge dealt with properly.
I can tell you now that we’ve only had this “English” chant sung at us since the Thai’s took over. When Mandy was in charge it wasn’t sung. What does that tell you exactly?
I’m all for ‘Banter’, some Forest fans sung “You might me rich, but you’re still shit” on Saturday which actually made me laugh (and to be fair, they had a point). What I’m saying is that there can still be banter without it being racist, sexist or homophobic (something else I’ve seen from a few Forest tweeters this week).
On a side note, Paul I was in the Brian Clough lower section of Leicester fans on Saturday, I’d just like to say the stewards there were fantastic. Easy to talk to, relaxed and let us stand and sing with little bother, which is very refreshing. Even took the kids down to the front to make sure they could see. Grade A chaps, well done.
Cheers guys, keep up the good work,
Tom
Hi, I’m a Forest fan of nearly 30 years, 11 as a season ticket holder.
The A Block has been a problem at Forest for a long time, but it has taken on a more complex meaning in recent years as the nature of football attendance has changed. First of all, most if not all football teams have a racist element in their fanbases, it’s a consequence of the working class history of the game. Working class or deprived areas of cities that supply local teams with many of their fans have always been at the heart of issues related to racial integration in their communities, and of course under the influence of poisonous rags such as The Sun. None of this is an excuse for people’s behaviour, I’m simply stating juat some of the facts that affect the issue.
Within the A Block there is also unquestionably a strong pro-war element to the chanting, which I’ve always felt to be influenced by Nottingham’s large contingent of squaddies, and those that know them. This is one reason why the chants often end up nationalistic, and with war references. I can’t find another explanation for the mention of ‘Baghdad’ (Leicester is well known for a large Asian community, but Iraqi?). This seems a little more sinister than the sheer ignorance behind ‘town full of P***s’, which I had the dubious pleasure of hearing in a match v Leicester a couple of years ago just mere minutes after the ‘Kick It Out’ campaign had been around the pitch pre-match.
In days gone by, this element would have been in the Trent End, amongst many hundreds of other vociferous fans. Their chants may have still been heard, but it would have been clear that this was a troublesome minority. At today’s City Ground the problem is more noticeable because the A Block is the only area that makes any noise at all, therefore they end up representing the whole crowd, and indeed the club. This would be the chief defence of those in the A Block – without them there would be no atmosphere at the City Ground at all. The most worrying consequence of this is that younger fans will be drawn towards this area as it looks as if that’s where the action is. In short, The A Block could end up breeding racists for many years to come unless someone comes up with a way to make decent-minded Forest fans make some noise at home again. The difficulty is of course, that fans in other areas (myself included) don’t like joining in with A Block singing because they don’t like those in A Block, and understandably so.
It’s worth pointing out that this is less of a problem away from home, where Forest fans have an excellent reputation.
p.s. I’m glad others have brought up the sexist chanting, as that ought to be just as worthy of a criminal investgation as the racist stuff. It’s all sickening and should be stopped.
Very valid points but this really is a complete storm in a tea cup whipped up by a load of sad individuals with nothing better to do than get home after the football and post on twitter.. 3 years ago there were far worse chants than this being sung. Racism is pretty much a thing of the past at football thank god but chanting, banter, atmosphere are likely to be a thing of the past to as we continue on this crusade to sanitize and micro police everything related to football. Sad times and sad people…
Abuse is never a storm in a teacup to the person abused – it is perhaps sad that anyone should think it is.
Take the word racist out of it and think more widely. Why is it OK to abuse anyone for something personal to them that they have no hope of changing?
Banter is witty and clever and should be returned in kind. Abuse is just fundamentally cruel.
Jane: In my book that makes you the victim of prejudice, so yes I think you do know how it feels.
Ben: Just because worse things were sung before (and that is a matter of opinion), it doesn’t make it ok or valid that these things are happening now.
Thank you for a brilliant article
Thank you for this peice : from a forest fan and a member of the anti nazi league. There is no need for this chanting and some in the A block disgust all forest fans
An excellent article and one which needed to be written given that this is sadly a topic which has arisen more now in the world of football.
What a sad shame that what is clearly such a tiny minority of ‘fans’ end up contaminating the good name of decent supporters.
I’m not any where near as articulate as the erstwhile writer so cant add much to this article, but I must say I was rather taken aback by the account of the fans using the P word in reference to some Leicester fans. i thought that sort of thing had died out in the mid 80s which is the last time I heard that sort of thing.
Bringing the whole Suarez issue in, it does appear that Liverpool FC have no real concept of what it is to properly ‘support’ a member of their staff. Support as far as I am concerned does not mean blindly backing up any idiotic action. a more appropriate way to show support would surely be to say ‘OK, clearly Luis used a word which is unacceptable, but I am sure he realises his mistake and I can categorically say that while the word used may have been racist, he himself is in no way racist.’
I think most of us would accept that there is a slight difference between using racist language and being a racist in terms of ideology. Ron Atkinson being another example of this. That said, I am not sure to what extent ignorance can be defended. Another commenter mentioned somewhat validly that the elderly sometimes use outmoded language, but not out of malice. Indeed that is true, but if such people have their mistake pointed out to them and still state that it ‘was not offensive in my day’ etc, is that still acceptable? I would argue not perhaps. Similarly with Suarez, I accept to some extent that the word he used may not have been offensive in Uruguay. In India, the dreaded N word is still used, but that is due to there being no real awareness of the fact that the word ‘black’ is considered to be the only real acceptable term. Be this the case, it is not excusable for anyone from India to use that word in Britain surely. Also, Suarez did apparently use the word multiple times which does punch holes in his already pathetic defence.
Liverpool’s attitude has been idiotic to say the least and does nothing to quell my perception that they have an over inflated sense of entitlement and continue to insist that everybody else but them are the ones with the problem.
In some ways, I would perhaps controversially argue that their reaction to the incident was just as damning as the incident itself.
I’m rambling now so I shall depart.
In closing, a marvellous article which has really provoked some great discussion, and that can never be a bad thing.
Oh , I ought also to point out that when I was talking about people in India using the N word, I meant the one beginning with Ne. Not the even more awful one beginning with Ni.
I agree with all of this. One observation – the club could do a lot more. Leaving aside the moral reasons to do it, it’s even commercially the right thing to do.
It also can’t be disentangled from the broader issue of civility. Other clubs – most noticeable Ipswich – are alright to visit either going in the home or away end.
Clubs shape this in all kinds of ways, from the quality of the accommodation through to the signage around the ground.
Forest should be working hard to make matchdays a family day out. I’ve never really seen them do this properly.